At the risk of sounding anti-Semitic, I want to say this: either American Jews are completely clueless about the internal struggle inside Islam or they are so cowardly, that they are even afraid to voice their opinion. Or maybe it's a combination of both.
Every time there is a development that involves radical Islam, be it a Mayor of New York attending an Islamist parade, DOJ's officials attending an Islamist conference, or a protester being sued for having the balls to expose an Islamist-sponsored event at an amusement park, the American Jewish community is as quiet as a church mouse. It's like it is not even there.
The effect of this silence is devastating. Not for the Jewish community, not yet. That time is still to come. The silence affects the American Muslim community. Every time moderate Muslims are ignored and Islamists are legitimized (by either direct support from government representatives or silent support of the ADL), radicals gain ground. In the current PC climate, moderate Muslims have pretty much no choice but to keep their mouths shut.
Luckily for us, not everyone in the Jewish community is like that. There are some Jews that are speaking out. One of them is Steven Emerson, who has been warning the West about the dangers of Islamic fundamentalism since before PanAm 103. Most of his current work is focused on exposing the radicals masquerading as the moderates – those radicals who are embraced by the DOJ and the Pentagon, by the mayor of New York Bloomberg (Rudy would never get into bed with terrorist supporters) and the Treasury Department, by the State Department and the Department of Homeland Security, by the Congress and the White House.
There is a war of ideas within Islam, and moderate Muslims are losing. Most of Muslim clergy and Muslim establishment are paid for by the Wahhabis. Moderate Muslims are being run out of Mosques and community centers, and in many cases are physically threatened. Moderate Muslims have no place in the media or public debate, because the place reserved for Muslims is filled by Islamic radicals, who attempt to make criticizing anything Islamic a taboo. According to the Islamists, a Muslim can do no wrong.
1. When a non-Muslim criticizes Islam or Muslims, he/she is an Islamophobe.
2. When a Muslim criticizes Islam or Muslim, he/she is not a real Muslim, therefore see #1.
This is a tactic used by "moderate" Muslims, the darlings of the government and the media. But how can you call someone who praises bin Laden, or has ties to Hamas, or calls for the elimination of Israel, or wants to replace the Constitution with the Koran a moderate? They are anything but moderates, however nobody except for a few people like Steven Emerson seems to notice that. But even when the Emersons of America appeal to the public, they are often being dismissed as alarmists and racists. Well, they are anything, but. You don't have to be a clairvoyant to predict the future when it comes to expansion of radical Islam and extinction of moderate Muslims. All you need to do is get your heads out of the sand.
Why our government is so forgiving and forgetful when it comes to individuals or organizations with known terrorist ties and anti-American views is beyond me. Why the Jewish leaders are so timid when it comes to the subject of radical Islam is incomprehensible.
I thank God every day for people like Steven Emerson, because they are the last glimmer of hope for moderate Muslims.
K.M.
Thursday, November 8, 2007
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37 comments:
Hi guys just thought thought I express my support for your web site and what you are about! Great and necessary work! Good luck!
Wow If This is real we have hope.
Keep up the great work of safeguarding freedom from those Nazi Muslims that hate my people and 2 other great innocent nations.
This is one great post. I really wish there were a lot more Muslims like you guys.
WOW! I'm so glad I posted a link to here on my comment over at IBA because you guys seem to be getting the support and reaction you deserve! Nice one!
You guys know lots about this endemic which threatens us all. It is certainly unfortunate (if not silly) that most other Muslims (if not all) aren't like you. Bravo, though, in fighting against the oppressive ways of your people to bring us the Truth (with, as you can plainly see, a capital "T"). I love it all to death and will be watching!
"most other Muslims (if not all) aren't like you"
Many other Muslims are silent because they do not have a forum. Hopefully they learn about us and use our forum to voice their views. However, there are also many Muslims who do speak out; some of them are featured in the upper-right corner of our blog.
Great blog. Thanks for leaving a comment on my blog - TerrorWonk (www.terrorwonk.blogspot.com).
You are dead on. Muslims are the first victims of the extremists.
I want to assure you that I found nothing anti-Semitic in your article. I am a longtime pro-Israel activist and member of the ADL. I think your criticism of the ADL is reasonable and well-measured. I'd also add that I agree with what you said.
At the risk of sounding anti-Semitic
well congratulations
you do
if you had
disguised the Jew hate better
maybe your message would have been heard a bit better
Thanks so much for leaving your comment on my blog. No, you don't sound anti-Semitic at all. Most of the American Jewish community is left-leaning, liberal to the extreme, hence fearful of being accused of, ahem, Islamaphobia.
Your blog is an articulate and important voice. We hope to hear from you more often.
Hello K.M.,
Thanks for putting this post in my comments. I appreciate you dropping by EIP but I appreciate your blog and its POV much more.
Firstly let me make it clear: American Jews are neither 'cowardly' nor 'foolish'.
Nor are British Jews - I know, because I AM one.
Yet as you note, in both countries, the Jewish community is not being vocal enough in our opposition to the increasing Islamisation of Europe.
It's not always a lack of effort. Here in the UK, many of us, both Jewish and Gentile alike, DO speak up. We constantly phone radio shows whenever the topic under discussion is releated to either radical Islam, or Israel, or anti semitism etc. Usually though, our calls are not among those selected. I kow this from personal experience.
Ditto with TV and newspapers.
The Jewish way is not to scream and shout and rant and rave and march in protest. We just don't do that.
Maybe we should.
As for whether you sound 'anti semitic' or not - no, I don't actually think you do. Rather, you come across as frustrated and angry.
I recommend you get in touch with Jewish groups and organisations - maybe together you can make a difference.
I really like your site, by the way, and will be linking to it at my blog http://ajewwithaview.wordpress.com
"American Jews are neither 'cowardly' nor 'foolish'."
Really? Then how do you explain the fact that majority of the American Jews voted for Obama, many of whose friends and supporters are rabid anti-Semites, over McCain, who is staunchly pro-Israel. What could be a possible reason other than stupidity? What about all those Jews who constantly legitimizing Islamists and ignoring moderate Muslims?
"The Jewish way is not to scream and shout and rant and rave and march in protest."
You got that right; it seems like the Jewish way is to bend over and take it.
"I recommend you get in touch with Jewish groups and organisations - maybe together you can make a difference."
Yeah, we tried that. Typical response is: "you cannot call Islamic extremists Islamic extremists, because it alienates Islamic extremists and we need to have a dialogue with Islamic extremists." Major American Jewish organizations are great when it comes to white supremacism; when it comes to Islamic supremacism, they have no balls.
You have stated:
"You got that right; it seems like the Jewish way is to bend over and take it. "
That is an offensive comment and there was no need for it.
I could argue that there are millions of Muslims who are failing to speak out while their OWN co religionists commit terrorism IN the name of Islam - note I don't call THEM 'cowards' nor do I insult THEM.
Stop singling out American Jews and bashing them - seems to me that across Europe and in the USA that ***all*** non Muslims and most Muslims themselves are NOT speaking up.
Regarding the American support for Obama - as a non American, I must confess to being very bemused at Jewish support for this man. That said, I'm also aware that not nearly as many Jews as the media has said actually voted for him.
I refer you to a particular blog by an American Jew who is SCATHING about Obama - check out his article on the fact that the media seems to have OVER stated the figures for Jews who voted for Obama.
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com
Also, I assume that many Jews would have voted for John McCain if Sarah Palin hadn't been his vice chair! She's known to belong to a Church that condones very aggressive evangelism towards Jews and also Muslims, I believe.
We all need to work together on this issue - worldwide and interfaith efforts are needed.
Tell me - am I going to have to stop visiting your site because of any more insults towards American Jews?
Your call.
"That is an offensive comment and there was no need for it."
You're right, I apologize. What I was trying to say is that American Jewish establishment has no balls and that a majority of American Jews blindly follow it.
"I could argue that there are millions of Muslims who are failing to speak out while their OWN co religionists commit terrorism IN the name of Islam - note I don't call THEM 'cowards' nor do I insult THEM."
Maybe you should. An overwhelming majority of Muslims are either believe in Islamic supremacism or are too cowardly to speak up against it. The fact that the media and the government embraces Islamic radicals and ignores moderate Muslims does not help much either, though.
"Stop singling out American Jews and bashing them"
I just used them as an example. I'm sure this tendency is about the same throughout the world and it cuts across religious lines. However, I would expect that the Jews, who went through the Holocaust just a few decades ago would be more attuned to the dangers of Islamofascism.
"I'm also aware that not nearly as many Jews as the media has said actually voted for him."
About three quarters did. Obama's campaign was orchestrated by Hollywood professionals, who are disproportionately Jewish. It look like Hollywood is seething with anti-Israeli sentiment; much of which emanates from Hollywood Jews. It feels strange, that I am, a Muslim, is more pro-Israel than an average Jew I encounter online.
"Also, I assume that many Jews would have voted for John McCain if Sarah Palin hadn't been his vice chair! She's known to belong to a Church that condones very aggressive evangelism towards Jews and also Muslims, I believe."
I don't know much about Palin's church, but it could not possibly be worse than Obama's church run by an anti-Semite who posted Hamas manifesto in the church paper.
"Tell me - am I going to have to stop visiting your site because of any more insults towards American Jews?"
I call it as I see it. It is not my intention to insult anyone. However, when people do crappy things that put everyone (including me and you) in danger, I won't ignore them.
You said:
"..when people do crappy things that put everyone (including me and you) in danger, I won't ignore them."
But American Jews did not put Obama in the White House.
The American People did that.
American Jews = less than 2% of the American population.
So sure, be angry as hell that Obama is your President. But quit pushing the bulk of the blame onto the Jews!
And again: I would definitely take a look at that figure of three quarters of Jews voting for Obama.
As for Jews not defending Israel - wow, I don't know WHERE in cyberspace you've been hanging out! I regularly defend Israel in many online forums, and there are a fair number of other Jews - and non Jews - doing the same! And very passionately!
To address your comment on the Holocaust: I suspect it is precisely because we went through this that *some* Jews are reluctant to criticise Islam. We know what can happen when an entire faith gets demonised.
I, as it happens, am not one of those Jews. I can and do state openly, and often, that I have major problems with Islam and that I am most unhappy at the sheer number of concessions being made to certain Muslim groups in Britain. At least over the pond there are moderate Muslims speaking out - we rarely have this here in the UK.
Re Obama and Sarah Palin: yes, I read about Obama's Church. Sounds pretty horrific...
Sarah Palin's big mistake was not walking out of her Church when the Christian Evangelical group 'jews4jesus' gave a speech there. I know that American Jews are very worried about these particular evangelical movements and so that *may* have damaged Palin's popularity with Jewish voters. Just a thought.
"But American Jews did not put Obama in the White House. The American People did that. American Jews = less than 2% of the American population."
If you really believe that without Jewish support Obama would have a snowball's chance in hell to win either in the primary or general elections, you must be delusional. Yes, Jews are a small minority. However Obama's near-perfect campaign was a Hollywood production. Liberal Jews put Obama over the top.
"So sure, be angry as hell that Obama is your President. But quit pushing the bulk of the blame onto the Jews!"
And who should I blame? The anti-Semites who voted for him. When average Americans are too stupid to understand the dangers of radical Islam, it's forgivable - few of them had first-hand experience with it. When Jews are too stupid to understand the dangers of radical Islam, it's beyond the pale!
"As for Jews not defending Israel - wow, I don't know WHERE in cyberspace you've been hanging out!"
Read this and tell me that those Jews are pro-Israel.
"I suspect it is precisely because we went through this that *some* Jews are reluctant to criticise Islam."
There is a difference between Islam and Islamism, I trust you understand it.
Jew With A View,
Read these posts. They may give you an idea about the stance of American Jewry on radical Islam. Granted, there are many American Jews who hold very different views, but the trend of the majority is very troubling to say the least.
You state:
"When average Americans are too stupid to understand the dangers of radical Islam, it's forgivable - few of them had first-hand experience with it. When Jews are too stupid to understand the dangers of radical Islam, it's beyond the pale!"
Ah, and there we have it. Yet again Jews are being held to a different standard.
Christians are being persecuted terribly in Muslim countries - yet I don't see you stating it's 'beyond the pale' when THEY sometimes don't recognise the dangers of radical Islam.
Your comments about Jews are inaccurate and biased in the extreme. You have tried to hold American Jews responsible for:
a)getting Obama elected
b) not stopping the rise of radical Islam
I am extremely disappointed to find these sentiments being expressed on your site. They are unfair, to say the least.
You have repeatedly singled out Jews for condemnation. But again: Jews, liberal or otherwise, did NOT put Obama in the White House.
His team has plenty of NON Jews in it, yet again, you don't seem to have an issue with them.
And did it ever occur to you that actually, it isn't UP to JEWS to stop radical Islam?
It's up to MUSLIMS to stop radical Islam.
Again, I urge you to read the article at http://sultanknish.blogspot.com. He echoes *some* of your sentiments - but doesn't feel the need to bash Jews along the way.
"Yet again Jews are being held to a different standard."
Absolutely. But don't try to portray that as some kind of malicious discrimination. Take the Talmud, for example. You would expect a Jew to know more about it than a gentile. Does this expectation manifest bigotry against the Jews? Well, same goes for the threat of radical Islam.
"Christians are being persecuted terribly in Muslim countries - yet I don't see you stating it's 'beyond the pale' when THEY sometimes don't recognise the dangers of radical Islam."
Let's deal with realities, shall we?
1. More than a third of world Jews are in imminent danger from radical Muslims. The proportion of Christians is much smaller.
2. The Jews have it much worse than Christians in Muslim countries.
3. Average Christian is much less aware of the dangers of radical Islam than an average Jew.
"You have tried to hold American Jews responsible for:
a)getting Obama elected
b) not stopping the rise of radical Islam"
A. Do you really believe that Obama would have been elected without Hollywood Jews? If you do, you don't have a slightest idea of what happened here in 2008.
B. No, I blame them for helping to promote it.
"You have repeatedly singled out Jews for condemnation."
What a load of crap! If you really read this site, you'd see that condemnation of Jews is quite rare, while condemnation of Muslims is very common. We do not condemn people based on their religion; we condemn them based on their actions. And, as it happens, Muslims do a lot more crap than Jews. To understand the proportion, visit 2008 Retarded Rabbi Awards and compare it to 2008 Distinguished Islamofascist Awards.
"His team has plenty of NON Jews in it, yet again, you don't seem to have an issue with them."
Of course, I do. But as you have noticed, I hold the Jews to a higher standard when it comes to ignoring the threat of radical Islam.
"It's up to MUSLIMS to stop radical Islam."
No shit, Einstein. And what do you think we're trying to do here? Promote it?
"Again, I urge you to read the article at http://sultanknish.blogspot.com."
This is not an article, it's a blog. Do you have the URL of the actual article you want me to read?
"He echoes *some* of your sentiments - but doesn't feel the need to bash Jews along the way."
I don't bash the Jews. Holding the Jews to a higher standard when it comes to ignoring radical Islam is not Jew-bashing, it's common sense. Let me give you an example. When some Episcopalians partner with ISNA (a main American branch of Muslim Brotherhood) nobody pays attention to it. But when URJ (Union for Reform Judaism) partners with ISNA, many people think: even if the Jews think ISNA is OK, it must be OK.
Perhaps you could refrain from being so aggressive and hurling expletives at me. I have been nothing other than courteous towards you - even though some of your comments are by any objective standards offensive.
To address your points:
1 - using the Talmud as an analogy doesn't work. The fact that in general Jews study it more and thus should understand it more does not equate with your mantra-like insistance that Jews have some kind of special duty to fend off radical Islam. Working against extreme Islam is in the interests of ALL non Muslims equally - and ALL non Muslims share this responsibility.
2 - historically yes, Jews have fared very badly in Islamic countries. Right now, though, Christians are having an equally difficult time. Check out http://www.politicalislam.com
3 - 'hollywood jews' did not put Obama in the White House and no matter how many times you make this absurd statement, it doesn't make it valid.
Jews = less than 2% of Americans.
The American people put Obama into power. If *some* Jewish people worked as part of his team, that is their *right* - last time I checked, America WAS ostensibly a democracy.
I *do* agree that there is a particular hatred towards Jews expressed by extreme Islam. My issue is with the fact that you are apparently unable to discuss this fact without:
a)holding Jews to a different standard than all other groups within America
b)the insults you have repeatedly posted ABOUT American Jews
If America follows in the footsteps of Britain, Sweden, Norway and Denmark, and allows extremist Muslim factions to gain considerable power, than ***ALL*** NON MUSLIMS will suffer greatly.
So quite apart from anything else, it's irrational to keep harping on about how American Jews must lead the charge!
What's more, you seem to ignore those American Jews who did and do speak out very passionately against Obama. For instance, the group Jews Against Obama, to name but one example.
http://jewagainstobama.wordpress.com/
You said, re radical Islam:
"No shit, Einstein. And what do you think we're trying to do here? Promote it?"
And in terms of appealing to first time visitors to your site, such as myself and any other Jews, for instance, do you think that *your* frankly spiteful comments about American Jews will make many of us MORE or LESS drawn to your project...?
I appreciate that perhaps you haven't received the support you'd hoped for from some of the American Jewish groups you've approached.
But I can GUARANTEE that bashing them won't encourage a change of heart on their part.
Here is a link to the article I mentioned over at the Sultan Knish blog:
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2008/11/who-did-jews-really-vote-for-in-2008.html
"I have been nothing other than courteous towards you - even though some of your comments are by any objective standards offensive."
Is that because I am frustrated by Jewish ambivalence of radical Islam, while you're trying to justify it?
"Working against extreme Islam is in the interests of ALL non Muslims equally - and ALL non Muslims share this responsibility."
Wrong! Radical Islam presents the most danger to Muslims, that's why Muslims must work the hardest to eliminate it. The second-most affected group is the Jews. Haven't 2000 years of persecution taught you anything about self preservation? Wasn't the Holocaust enough? Are you yearning for another one? Because legitimizing Islamofascism is nothing short of asking condoning extermination of the Jews.
"Right now, though, Christians are having an equally difficult time."
Wrong again. Israel is constantly being used as a scapegoat; anti-Semitic sentiment in Muslim countries is much worse than anti-Christian sentiment.
"'hollywood jews' did not put Obama in the White House and no matter how many times you make this absurd statement, it doesn't make it valid."
You statement proves that you have no clue about American politics.
"If *some* Jewish people worked as part of his team, that is their *right* - last time I checked, America WAS ostensibly a democracy."
And *some* Jewish people are working hard to destroy Israel. Soros, Finkelstein, Lerner, Feinberg, to name a few. They're not doing anything illegal, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't be condemned.
"My issue is with the fact that you are apparently unable to discuss this fact without ... holding Jews to a different standard than all other groups within America"
That's your problem; you seem to be more worried about my descriptions of American Jews than the fact that many American Jews promote Islamofascism.
"the insults you have repeatedly posted ABOUT American Jews"
There is a difference between a statement of fact and just an insult. If I said that in America an average gentile is dumber than an average Jew, if non-Jews see it as insulting, it doesn't change the fact.
"So quite apart from anything else, it's irrational to keep harping on about how American Jews must lead the charge!"
I think American Muslims should lead the charge, but the Jews should be close second.
"What's more, you seem to ignore those American Jews who did and do speak out very passionately against Obama."
Really? Doesn't the headline of the article contradict your contention? A large proportion of the articles posted on our blog are authored by anti-Islamist Jews. Almost a half of our STOP HONORCIDE! co-chairs are Jewish. So, I am well aware of anti-Islamists Jews in America. However, they are a small minority of American Jewry. And anti-Islamist Muslims are even smaller minority among American Muslims.
"And in terms of appealing to first time visitors to your site, such as myself and any other Jews, for instance, do you think that *your* frankly spiteful comments about American Jews will make many of us MORE or LESS drawn to your project...?"
If those people are more concerned about Jewish image than fighting Islamism, you're probably right.
"I appreciate that perhaps you haven't received the support you'd hoped for from some of the American Jewish groups you've approached."
We never asked any American Jewish groups for support. We asked them to severe ties with Muslim Brotherhood front organizations and we provided ample evidence to support our claims that ISNA, CAIR, MAS, etc. are Muslim Brotherhood fronts. But these Jewish groups choose to ignore our warnings and continue moving on a suicidal path.
As for Jews voting for/against Obama, the article is full of conjectures. However the fact that majority of American Jews living in Israel prove my point: Jews who are attuned to Islamofascist danger did not vote for Obama. The problem is that majority of American Jews are NOT attuned to it, and they must be.
Gosh, look!
Here's some of those apparently non existent Jews that don't support Obama!
http://roguejew.wordpress.com/under-obamas-bus/
http://themadjewess.wordpress.com/
Many more, as well.
Guess as they are perhaps not 'hollywood jews' they don't count, though...
"Here's some of those apparently non existent Jews that don't support Obama!"
I never said that those Jews do not exist. I'm talking about a general trend. You can find anti-Islamist Muslims in America, but to claim that American Muslims are anti-Islamist is beyond stupid.
1 - wow, talk about a weak attempt to justify your own rudeness!
2 - I don't need to try and 'justify' anything to *you*. Nor would I try. I have merely attempted to point out, and counter, *some* of your extremely offensive remarks about American Jews.
3 - your sick rhetorical comment about 'another Holocaust' is appalling. I know it. You know it. Any rational person following this thread knows it. Grow up.
4 - There is a profound difference between suggesting that *some* Jews are not aware of the dangers of radical Islam, and stating that Jews are 'legitimizing Islamofascism'.
Jews are doing no such thing.
5 - look back at my FIRST comment in this entire thread.
Note that I DEFENDED you against any accusations of 'anti semitism' and that I SPECIFICALLY said I didn't think you were guilty of this.
I meant it.
I also mean it NOW when I state that your repeated line about 'hollywood jews' IS not just absurd but is also just one more repetition of the weary old lie about Jews 'controlling hollywood' or 'controlling america'. You are stepping over the line.
So far, it's just my opinion. Perhaps I should put a link TO this entire thread on my own blog, and get some other opinions...
To reiterate: I AGREE with you that Jews WORLDWIDE should be active in trying to counter radical Islam. Many are.
But see, here's the thing:
Jews worldwide must ALSO address spiteful comments made about either Judaism or Jewish people - even IF we happen to find them on websites such as yours, which we would otherwise have found extremely impressive.
I've just read your latest comment; in which you imply I am 'beyond stupid'.
Yet again you have to resort to hurling personal insults. I won't descend to your level by retaliating.
"wow, talk about a weak attempt to justify your own rudeness!"
Suppose it is rudeness. What is more dangerous, my rudeness or your complacency and "a Jew can do no wrong" attitude?
"I have merely attempted to point out, and counter, *some* of your extremely offensive remarks about American Jews."
I am sorry that stating the facts offends you, but it's hardly my fault the things are what they are.
"your sick rhetorical comment about 'another Holocaust' is appalling. I know it. You know it. Any rational person following this thread knows it. Grow up."
So when Netanyahu says that Israelis won't sit on their asses waiting for another Holocaust, it's OK, but when I bring up the subject it's appalling?
"There is a profound difference between suggesting that *some* Jews are not aware of the dangers of radical Islam, and stating that Jews are 'legitimizing Islamofascism'."
Yes, but that is not the case. MOST Jews behave like they are not aware of the dangers of radical Islam, and MOST Jews are legitimizing Islamofascism by their actions or lack thereof.
"Jews are doing no such thing."
Are you familiar with the concept of wishful thinking? Or have you not read my previous comments? URJ is in alliance with ISNA. That's a fact. The head of URJ said: "Islamic extremists constitute a profound threat. For some, this is a reason to flee from dialogue, but in fact the opposite is true." That's a fact. If you don't describe it as the "Jews legitimizing Islamofascism," how would you describe it?
"I also mean it NOW when I state that your repeated line about 'hollywood jews' IS not just absurd but is also just one more repetition of the weary old lie about Jews 'controlling hollywood' or 'controlling america'. You are stepping over the line."
Jews are controlling America in a sense as Lieberman controls Knesset. (Being in a minority, he has enough power to make or break Netanyahu as PM.) And so are Blacks and Hispanics. Any minority has disproportionate power in evenly-split country. There is nothing wrong with it. And it's not like they're pushing pro-Israeli agenda. They are doing quite the opposite. As for Hollywood Jews, do you really think that 2% figure applies to Hollywood big shots?
"Perhaps I should put a link TO this entire thread on my own blog, and get some other opinions..."
Maybe, you should.
"To reiterate: I AGREE with you that Jews WORLDWIDE should be active in trying to counter radical Islam. Many are."
Would you agree that these "many" are in the minority?
"Jews worldwide must ALSO address spiteful comments made about either Judaism or Jewish people"
Here you go again. My problem is that Jews do not do enough to confront radical Islam. You problem is that I have a problem with the Jews not doing enough to confront radical Islam. Tell me, which one of us is more pro-Israel?
"I've just read your latest comment; in which you imply I am 'beyond stupid'."
You really need to get rid of that chip on your shoulder. Why would you assume that "to claim that American Muslims are anti-Islamist is beyond stupid" was addressed to you, when you never even mentioned the subject?
I think the difference between us is this. We acknowledge the problem and have the balls to put this on our blog. You seem to be more concerned with the Jewish image. I doubt that you would put something like this on your blog.
You say:
'What is more dangerous, my rudeness or your complacency and "a Jew can do no wrong" attitude?'
Er, since when does the fact that radical Islam poses a threat negate YOUR rudeness?
And WHERE did I EVER say 'a jew can do no wrong'???
Well? Do show me where I said or implied that.
As for my 'complacency' - it's easy to disprove this unfounded insult. All you have to do is go to my own blog where you will SEE I have written about radical Islam and its impact on the UK.
http://ajewwithaview.wordpress.com
Before you label someone 'complacent', check your 'facts'.
----------------------------------
You state:
'I am sorry that stating the facts offends you, but it's hardly my fault the things are what they are.'
No, you have stated your OPINION of American Jews.
Just because you state something doesn't make it 'fact'.
But as it happens - and as I've stated several times now - I DO AGREE WITH YOU that ALL JEWS WORLDWIDE should indeed be battling the rise of extreme Islam.
The difference between us is that I don't bash those who don't! Nor do I insist that they 'control hollywood' which is what YOU have now pretty much tried to say.
That's the same comment I have found numerous times on sites run BY extreme Muslim organisations such as Hizbut Tahrir.
Do your maths.
Jews = less than 2% of Americans. So even IF every single Jew in the USA had voted for Obama (which of course was not the case) it STILL wouldn't have put Obama in the White House.
---------------------------------
Netanyahu didn't pose it as a question; had he done so, rest assured I would have labelled it as being 'sick' also.
----------------------------------
You state:
'MOST Jews are legitimizing Islamofascism by their actions or lack thereof.'
Do you, personally, KNOW 'most jews' in America, then...?
I'll asume not.
So how do you know what they are or are not doing, behind the scenes...?
Answer: you don't.
But for the sake of fairness, let's assume you are right - and you may well be, I don't know.
Let's say 'most jews' in America are not doing very much to protest the encroachment of radical Islam. Surely there is a better way of confronting this than bashing them here on this blog?
-----------------------------------
You wrote:
The head of URJ said: "Islamic extremists constitute a profound threat. For some, this is a reason to flee from dialogue, but in fact the opposite is true." That's a fact. If you don't describe it as the "Jews legitimizing Islamofascism," how would you describe it?
Do I agree with the head of URJ?
No, actually, I probably don't in this situation.
But he's still entitled to his OPINION. And he started off by STATING the SAME point as YOU!!!
Just because he wants to try and respond in a different way, that is NOT the same as 'legitimising' extreme Islam!
He would only be 'legitimising' it IF he stated that the position OF radical Islamists was 'correct'.
He certainly has not done that.
---------------------------------
You state:
'Jews are controlling America...'
Yes, I know that's just the start of that sentence but I don't give a damn. Any time anyone STARTS a sentence in that way, they are simply repeating the age-old lie.
A mere 2% of a population does not 'control' a country.
Lieberman and the Knesset is a totally invalid comparison - it's far from a proportionate analogy, for one thing.
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You said:
"My problem is that Jews do not do enough to confront radical Islam. You problem is that I have a problem with the Jews not doing enough to confront radical Islam.
LOL LOL - nice try.
My problem is NOT with YOUR exasperation with what you view as Jewish complacency. Not at all. It's your right to react to what you perceive as you see fit. AND as I have said, you may well be right in your estimation.
My PROBLEM is with YOUR spiteful comments about American Jews - not one of which was germane to this discussion!
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You asked:
'Tell me, which one of us is more pro-Israel?"
Well, you may be AS pro Israel as me. You couldn't be 'more' pro Israel than me, though.
How many times have you been there, then...?
Have you ever lived there?
Do you publicly advocate for Israel?
I'd love to know the answers, given that you've challenged my pro Israel credentials!
Trust me - I'm a total zionista and proud of it!
You say:
'I think the difference between us is this. We acknowledge the problem and have the balls to put this on our blog. You seem to be more concerned with the Jewish image. I doubt that you would put something like this on your blog.'
It's not a question of 'balls'.
It's a question of being articulate and mature enough to SAY what you want to WITHOUT insulting other people.
As for what I would or would not put on my own blog: thus far I don't think I've written anything directed at Jews who, for instance, don't support Israel. I probably should - as it does infuriate me.
Lack of 'balls' on my part?
LOL LOL LOL
Hardly.
I defend Israel in situations that are extremely unpleasant and have resulted in my being surrounded by people hurling threats etc.
But hey, if you need to come out of this discussion feeling superior, that says a lot about you.
"WHERE did I EVER say 'a jew can do no wrong'???"
You didn't say it outright, but you throw a hissy fit every time I point our when Jews do something wrong.
"Do show me where I said or implied that."
Sure: "Stop singling out American Jews and bashing them," which was a response to "Major American Jewish organizations ... when it comes to Islamic supremacism, they have no balls." Is this a good enough of an example?
"As for my 'complacency' - it's easy to disprove this unfounded insult. All you have to do is go to my own blog where you will SEE I have written about radical Islam and its impact on the UK."
Sure, but have you criticized Jewish groups that legitimize Islamofascism? No. You won't even acknowledge that it is happening, because in your eyes it amounts to "Jew-bashing."
"Before you label someone 'complacent', check your 'facts'."
OK, you're right, it's not complacency, it's condoning legitimization of Islamofascism. Better?
"No, you have stated your OPINION of American Jews. Just because you state something doesn't make it 'fact'."
No, I stated my opinion AFTER I provided the facts. Any unbiased individual would have similar opinion based on those facts.
"The difference between us is that I don't bash those who don't!"
EXACTLY!
"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil,
but because of those who look on and do nothing." - Albert Einstein
"Nor do I insist that they 'control hollywood' which is what YOU have now pretty much tried to say."
If every Jew in Hollywood were to disappear tomorrow, Hollywood would cease to exists. The Jews may not be in total control of Hollywood, but they have enough of control to shape its agenda.
"That's the same comment I have found numerous times on sites run BY extreme Muslim organisations such as Hizbut Tahrir."
Yeah, but the difference is that HuT claims that Jewish control of Hollywood results in Hollywood pro-Israeli stance, which is a bunch of crap. My contention is that Jewish control of Hollywood results in pro-Liberal / anti-Israeli stance, which is true.
"So even IF every single Jew in the USA had voted for Obama (which of course was not the case) it STILL wouldn't have put Obama in the White House."
That was not my point. My point was Jewish money and influence. The only reason Obama were able to get almost a billion dollars in campaign contributions is because his campaign was a professional creation of Hollywood quality.
"Netanyahu didn't pose it as a question; had he done so, rest assured I would have labelled it as being 'sick' also."
He made a statement about it. Had he been speaking in front of a Jewish audience that has your sentiment, he might have phrased his statement in a form of a question.
"Do you, personally, KNOW 'most jews' in America, then...?"
No, but I know of several major Jewish organizations that do legitimize Islamofascism and I know of ZERO major Jewish organizations that condemns the actions of the former, therefore condoning those actions with their silence. And I can extrapolate. It's a reasonable assumption. I also don't know most Muslims in the world, but I can extrapolate from our poll results that most of them are extremists.
"Let's say 'most jews' in America are not doing very much to protest the encroachment of radical Islam. Surely there is a better way of confronting this than bashing them here on this blog?"
I don't consider the statement that American Jews legitimizing Islamofascism a Jew-bashing. We're just gonna have to disagree on that.
"Do I agree with the head of URJ? No, actually, I probably don't in this situation."
In this situation? Really? In which situation would you agree that we need to have a dialogue with Islamic extremists?
"But he's still entitled to his OPINION. And he started off by STATING the SAME point as YOU!!!"
Are you nuts? How can you compare me that that degenerate? If one person says: "Hitler killed 6,000,000 Jews. I love Hitler!" And the other says "Hitler killed 6,000,000 Jews. I hate Hitler!" would you still be saying "And he started off by STATING the SAME point as YOU!!!" You're right in one thing; he is entitled to his opinion. Degeneracy is not criminalized. And, again, this proves what your priorities are. You have a much smaller problem with some dumb Jew openly embracing ISNA, i.e., LEGITIMIZING ISLAMOFASCISM, than with me, calling him a dumb Jew for LEGITIMIZING ISLAMOFASCISM.
"Just because he wants to try and respond in a different way, that is NOT the same as 'legitimising' extreme Islam!"
How clueless are you? What is the difference between Yoffe drooling over ISNA whose ultimate goal to rid the world of Jews (and other non Muslims) and him drooling over white Nazis whose ultimate goal to rid the world of Jews (and non-whites)? Would you try to approach the Nazis by "respond[ing] in a different way", i.e., by creating an alliance with them?
"He would only be 'legitimising' it IF he stated that the position OF radical Islamists was 'correct'."
You are (and I mean this in the most respectful and non-offensive way possible) an idiot, aren't you?
"'Jews are controlling America...' Yes, I know that's just the start of that sentence but I don't give a damn."
Please refer to my previous statement.
"YOUR spiteful comments about American Jews - not one of which was germane to this discussion!"
That's your opinion.
"Well, you may be AS pro Israel as me. You couldn't be 'more' pro Israel than me, though."
Really? Having a "Jew/Israel can do no wrong" point of view doesn't help Jews/Israel that much. Your aversion to self-criticism and your rabid desire to see anti-Semitism where there is none doesn't help much either. The only reason you have a problem with me criticizing Jews is because I am a Muslim. If I were a Jew, you wouldn't have this problem.
"Do you publicly advocate for Israel?"
Shouldn't you at least read our blog before asking questions that make you look ignorant? However, I can save you some time and give you a list of pro-Israeli Facebook that we belong to:
- I Support the Israel Defense Forces In Preventing Terror Attacks From Gaza
- The United Front against Arab /Islamo-Fascist Terror
- The True Face of the "Palestinians"
- Anti - Boycott (Proud buyers of Israeli goods)
- I Support Israel in the War Against Terrorism
- WE SUPPORT ZIONISM
- I Wonder How Quickly I Can Find 1,000,000 People Who Support Israel...
- Boycott Durban 2
- Children of Sderot
- I.D.F. - Support our brothers and sisters
- Boycott Durban II! (#2 recruiter for this group)
- jews uniting against nazi protests in south africa
- Make sure the Holocaust is still taught in British Schools!
- SUPPORT PALESTINIANS AND OTHER ARABS WHO DARE SPEAK UP ABOUT HAMAS
- Free Gilad Shalit
- people who want that the group ´how many people hate israel´ shut down
- Mohammed al-Dura was not killed.
- Stop Anti-Semitism
- People against Prussian Blue
Is this pro-Israel enough for you?
"It's a question of being articulate and mature enough to SAY what you want to WITHOUT insulting other people."
OK, since you the mature one, describe this in mature way.
I'm happy to have a polite debate and more than happy to address your latest points.
But I don't waste time discussing things with people who resort to calling me an 'idiot' purely on the basis that I disagree and challenge some of their points and above all, the insulting manner in which they often word them.
And frankly, when you then also resort yet again to the old 'jewish money controls hollywood' drivel, it's just plain BORING.
I also note that an earlier poster, whose religion I don't know, ALSO accused you of 'hating jews'. Now, *I* haven't said that. But it's interesting someone else picked up on some of the unfairness in your posts.
My final point - unless you have the decency to apologise for the insult in which case I will continue posting - is this:
At the very start of your article, you articulate the premise that I am objecting to:
You say that only when Jews speak up against radical Islam, do moderate Muslims have a 'glimmer of hope'.
It is this that I resent. Since when is it up to JEWS to show MUSLIMS how to reform their OWN RELIGION?
Since when is it up to JEWS to be the ones who have to show MUSLIMS how to speak up?
Get real.
That's my last post, unless you see fit to retract your silly insults. Oh, and by the way: you'll find that as a general rule, 'idiots' don't graduate from Cambridge Uni. They don't get accepted in the first place.
Regarding Israel: the fact that you happen to stand up for fairness and also accuracy in the media doesn't give you the right to imply that you are more pro Israel than I am - yet again, a silly premise on your part.
Right. I believe I'm done here.
Don't bother posting any response unless it starts with an apology for your sheer rudeness.
"I don't waste time discussing things with people who resort to calling me an 'idiot' purely on the basis that I disagree and challenge some of their points and above all, the insulting manner in which they often word them."
I believe I was very clear about being as non-offensive as possible. "Idiot" was not meant as an insult, but as a description. Your statement, "He would only be 'legitimising' it IF he stated that the position OF radical Islamists was 'correct'" was the most idiotic piece of this dialogue, describing you as an idiot was more than justified.
"when you then also resort yet again to the old 'jewish money controls hollywood' drivel, it's just plain BORING."
I didn't say "Jewish money", I said "Jews." But since on top of your "Jews can do no wrong" attitude, you have a tendency to ignore the facts when you don't like them.
"I also note that an earlier poster, whose religion I don't know, ALSO accused you of 'hating jews'."
Do you mean one retard among everyone else who thought it was a great posts? Doesn't that tell you something?
"unless you have the decency to apologise for the insult in which case I will continue posting"
If you have enough brains to understand that any Jew allying himself with radical Muslims legitimizes Islamofascism, I would be happy to. Otherwise, I stand by my statement that you and everyone else who doesn't understand it, is an idiot.
"you articulate the premise that I am objecting to: You say that only when Jews speak up against radical Islam, do moderate Muslims have a 'glimmer of hope'."
Have you heard about Jews being compared to a canary? Think about it.
"That's my last post, unless you see fit to retract your silly insults."
Again, we'd have to agree to disagree. For me, calling people who do not understand that any Jew allying himself with radical Muslims legitimizes Islamofascism idiots is an absolutely accurate description.
"Oh, and by the way: you'll find that as a general rule, 'idiots' don't graduate from Cambridge Uni. They don't get accepted in the first place."
I wouldn't be so sure. I know quite a few idiots who graduated from Harvard, Upenn, Princeton, and other Ivy League Schools.
"Regarding Israel: the fact that you happen to stand up for fairness and also accuracy in the media doesn't give you the right to imply that you are more pro Israel than I am - yet again"
No, but the fact that I better understand dangers for Israel and the rest of the free world while you're trying to stifle criticism of dumb Jews, does.
"Don't bother posting any response unless it starts with an apology for your sheer rudeness."
It's rather presumptuous of you to assume that you can tell me what I can or cannot post on OUR blog.
Jew With A View,
We just created a new poll, and I am prepared to offer you a bet. If majority of responders do not agree that URJ is legitimizing Islamofascism by allying with ISNA or poll results are inconclusive, I would publicly apologize to you on our blog and admit that I am an idiot. However, if the majority of responders do agree that URJ is legitimizing Islamofascism by allying with ISNA, you admit on your blog that you are an idiot. Do you have the balls to take that bet?
Wow! What an "eyeful" of comments.
First off I know, without any reservations, that MASH (KM) is not even remotely anti-Semitic.Quite the contrary.
In fact, I am often amazed at what is posted here.
I think someone stated he is utterly frustrated by the lack of action, and I agree with that assessment.
Re "Jews being held to a higher standard": I have seen this sentiment on several 'blogs. Many people make the excuse that it is because Jews are the "chosen people".
On this thread I think MASH is simply wishing/hoping they would do more because they are most at risk.That's all.
I think one reason is perhaps that Jews do not want to make waves and attract attention to themselves. Just witness the Antisemitism occurring around the world after the war in Gaza.
Frightening! I just feel for Holocaust survivors having to see this all again.
I think another reason is because Jews know what it's like to be a victim so they don't want to see it happen to anyone else.
I think that is why they tend to align themselves to inter-faith groups, and even Islamist groups, maybe unwittingly, in an attempt to prevent all types of discrimination. This seems to be fallacious.
Yet I keep coming back to the same sentiments I have expressed elsewhere: if we can't overcome these relatively minor issues there will be no issues left to overcome because it will be too late.
We all have to protect this patch from Islamism first and foremost.This is what KM (MASH) is working so hard at.
Jew With A View said....
"The Jewish way is not to scream and shout and rant and rave and march in protest. We just don't do that.
Maybe we should."
Yes, I agree with that. It seems to me that religions dictate the political scenes in which they exist at any given time.
Example: I think of the 'shetls' where the men prayed all day as was the custom, or tradition. It seems to me that had this not been the case perhaps the Holocaust would not have happened, or would have been less severe. More Jews like those of the Warsaw Ghetto would have helped. And no, I am not blaming the Jews because I know how long,,,too long in fact,,,it took the Allies to stop Hitler when they knew what was going on and did nothing.
Not to mention their despicable behavior after the war when they went out of their way to stop refugees going to what was later to become Israel.
I am simply saying one should be prepared for the reality of the times.
Another example could be the action of the Crusades, and also now the Iranian obsession with the 12th Imam.
I would also like to comment on the role of Hollywood and Jews regarding the election of Obama.
MASH (KM) mentions people like Soros.To me he is rather like a villain in a James Bond movie. He is an enemy of the free world in more ways than I care to go into now. He funded a lot of this election via MoveOn.org which also helped many people form their opinions.
Technically he may be a Jew, but in reality I think he is a "useful idiot"; not to mention a Nazi collaborator in the past.
It is hard to underestimate the role of the media in this election, eg David Zucker from MSNBC. In fact it is easier to list the media who took the opposite view - FoxNews.
As for the Hollywood elite I think of Bernie Goldberg's assessment: "We live in the United States of Entertainment". I believe he is correct.
Why are these people given so much cred? Older people may well see through them, but perhaps not the younger ones. How many celebs were out rallying for Obama? I have lost count. Those in Hollywood who are conservatives know they will be disadvantaged if they admit their allegiance. It's not just the actual numbers of Jews who got Obama over the line but the influence they exerted and this is something we will never know for sure.
And yet if "Jews are controlling America" why in heaven's name is Israel suffering so much?
I don't understand this.
Jew With A View said...
"But as it happens - and as I've stated several times now - I DO AGREE WITH YOU that ALL JEWS WORLDWIDE should indeed be battling the rise of extreme Islam."
Couldn't agree more. Yes, find the common ground. And add to that ANYONE, not only Jews, who does NOT want to live in an Islamic state under Sharia Law!
There is no united Jewish leadership in the US. There are organizations that claim to hold this role, not appointed by anyone and most of them are affiliated with the Democratic party. They're not about to challenge Islamism, or in any way step outside the lines of the Democratic party. They're as independent as NOW or the NAACP.
Speaking of American Jews as a collective whole, is as useless as speaking about American Italians or American Catholics as a whole.
"Speaking of American Jews as a collective whole, is as useless as speaking about American Italians or American Catholics as a whole."
Not exactly. When a majority of a group has a clear pattern, it is reasonable to to speak of a group as a collective whole.
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